View Full Version : What Caliber??
What Caliber do I need to take out a bear If I was unable to scare one away from a campsite and it was a threat to my Family?? I was thinking a 12 gauge but would any other load work besides slugs??
dunenutt
07/13/07, 3:05 AM
Just about any 30 caliber rifle will down a bear in a hurry. A 12 GA loaded with 00 would get the job done also. But for a camp protection weapon I think a hand gun in the .357-44 mag size would be sufficient. 40 or 45 would probably get his attention.
Just remember, you are in thier living room. Just because a bear enters your camp does not legaly give you the right to shoot them. A gunshot in his general direction will most likley send him packing[:0]Shooting one out of season would be a last resort.
Good info: http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/urban_bear.shtml
Jdonham
07/13/07, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the help so far. I know all the does and donts but what I want to know is last resort type info. If I was faced with a Bear and I have tried everything to get it to leave the area and I am left with nothing but a firearm what would be the best to do the job. I am thinking of a 12 guage because of price. I would rather not get into hand guns.
Webopper
07/13/07, 12:43 PM
You say you know the do's and don'ts, and maybe you just didn't elaborate, but a bear not leaving the area is by no means grounds for you to shoot (at) it. Only if a bear posesses a direct threat would you be justified in shooting it. With that said, I wouldn't go with any type of long gun. Not that they wouldn't do the job, but that if you are in a situation where you have to shoot a bear, you are more than likely going to be in close quarters and probably with other people around. Swinging a long gun into position and getting a shot without putting others in danger would be difficult at best.
Also consider that the incident has to be reported to G&F and how it might look if you claim to have shot a bear in defense with a .300 Win Mag. Not going to look good.
Check out the last incident here:
http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/inside_azgfd/minutes/2005/revocations/041505%20Rev.pdf
Arizona Griz
07/13/07, 3:06 PM
That is a good link posted by Dunenutt. ;)
In all the years that I have been in the woods, which are a lot of them, I have yet to have a bear come into my camp. Obviously they do, we all hear or read about it but just take precautions when you set up camp and put your food out. If you must have a pistol or rifle just make sure you are doing the right thing. You can never take back what you have taken.
Oh, I would think a 44 magnum would be just fine. :D
My thoughts: In parts of Alaska hikers are strongly advised to be armed in high density bear areas. The recommended gun is a .12 guage with slugs. That is the weapon also issued to police cars in Seattle when they are tasked with taking problem bears off of the airport runways. Any gun is better than no gun. But, I've hunted Alaska and felt just as naked with my 340 Weatherby as my 454 Casull. Bears there are just scary to me if you dont have a tag for them.
Everyone says that bear spray works. I know it would work on humans, but they say that bears extreme sense of smell makes the spray work better on them.
quote:Originally posted by Jdonham
What Caliber do I need to take out a bear If I was unable to scare one away from a campsite and it was a threat to my Family?? I was thinking a 12 gauge but would any other load work besides slugs??
Here is another article from the AZ Game & Fish. It talks about urban as well as rural settings.
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/urban_bear.shtml
Redneck
07/15/07, 10:41 AM
Unless you're wanting to stand guard with you 12 guage or rifle...not really practical in a family camping situation.
A .44 mag is a big sidearm to tote around for bear emergencies if you ask me...but I'm sure it would work, assuming you are able to shoot it well. Shot placement is everything. You need to choose something that you can shoot accurately.
Personally, I think I could take down a bear with my compact .45acp.
I believe that because I've practiced firing many rounds through it and know I can hit my target with it.
I heard you should file the front sight off of your chosen handgun in bear country. That way it won't snag when the bear shoves it......;)
Longhair
07/15/07, 5:43 PM
Speaking from experience, I have killed a 425 pound black bear.
I shot him through the left shoulder and it exited out the right just behind shoulder. as he was quartering towards me. His adrenalin was pumping about as much as mine. He was charging straight at me. I had my crosshairs right on him as he came, but it is not a good idea to shoot right at the forehead of a charging bear as its skull is thick and sloes dramatically back, so much more then it looks with muscle, fat and fur on it. You can actually have the slug skip off and do little damage other then really piss him off!
I was waited for a better shot as he came, finally he reached a downed tree trunk that was between us and he made a quick right (for him) to go around. This presented me with the left shoulder. I took the shot, it hit home right where I wanted it, I through in another round (hunting with falling block Ruger #1 single shot) and never took my eyes off him. He dropped like a ton of bricks, But, he then stood back up, despite the obvious killing shot, and then finally fell dead.
The shot blasted bone and bullet through most of his vitals with great devestation.
He was only by this time about 35 paces away!
The reason that I am telling this story is this: I was prepared for him, The shot went right where I wanted it to go. I am an excellent shot,(no brag just fact, qualified expert in the service in the early 70's with more than just the rifle [^]).
I have never missed any game animal that I have fired at.
I was hunting with a .375 H&H Magnum rifle, A rifle with literally TWICE the killing power of a 30 .06, They use this gun in Africa.
BUT the bear was still able to stand back up after that blow to all his major organs. Granted you cant carry a huge rifle around with you all the time, and yes a 12 guage with SLUGS would be a good long gun choice (buckshot does not penetrate good enough). A large caliber
high powered handgun would be your best choice in the handgun department. Can you kill a bear with a .357 sure...but not if he is pissed at you (at least not before he reaches you). anything is better than nothing.
Also just remember this isnt Brownies (though they are bigger), where if they attack you might be able to play dead and survive. When a Blackie attacks you he will usually start to eat the, but even if he dont he will kill you. So if you are attacked, you fight back with everything that you can lay your hands on! If you dont believe me ask any guide in Alaska... You can be fishing for salmon right close to a big Brownie... but its the Blackie in the bushes on the way back to the truck that you gotta watch out for!
If you are talking bear, and you choose a handgun, the caliber better start with a 4 or higher and you better be able to control that much gun...
Unless of course you are able to put a hole right in an eye socket of am animal running right at you.
In that case any old .22 will do....
My camp gun is a shortie .450 marlin.
I know I'm not good enough for a .357 mag versus a bear and I have no need to prove that!
A saying I heard a while ago that I will always remember is " If you are hunting rabbits in bear country, you better bring a bear gun."
Get you a nice Mossberg or Maverick 12 gauge(same company), one of the real short ones. Load it full of 00 and you'll be fine. You can get the pistol grips for those if your worried about it being to long. I think you can pick up a Maverick 12 gauge pump a little cheaper.
Here ya go.
http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=810238&item=31023&instock=all&manufact_combo=Maverick+Arms&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo=None&model=None&g_type=None&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=12+Gauge&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=
Wildroot
07/17/07, 3:16 PM
Forget about caliber....it is mm that will give you less worries. With this thing you could have godzilla mounted on your wall. One shot should be enough...
http://www.ridingarizona.com/forum/uploaded/Wildroot/200771723164_SMAW.JPG
I think that will make you a nice quilt with all the bits & pieces!
forget the quilt, i'd eat the meat. [:p]
Wildroot
07/18/07, 7:15 AM
mmmmm! mmmmmmm! Godzilla peppered jerky.
I just read an article about a new gun made by Taurus called the Judge. It's a 5 shot revolver that shoots 45LC or .410 shot shells. Load it with some 000 buck(3 balls that measure .357 each)and you're ready to go.:D
http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm
Longhair
07/21/07, 1:21 PM
You can get one like this 12 gauge for the cost of the gun and a $200 tax stamp.
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/jan/870lmbreechd.jpg
Or this one for a $5 tax stamp and $825.00 for the gun.
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg
Personally I would not count on a .410 to stop a bear...regardless of the load!
Redneck, who makes the top scatter gun... I've only seen Mossberg's that short... I like the 870
Longhair
07/21/07, 5:23 PM
Heres an 870 by Serbu,
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/jun/serburema.jpg
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/jun/serburemb.jpg
They are being sold by : http://www.autoweapons.com
I have fired some like these.... and you really want the Pacmeyer grip for it... it really makes a BIG difference!
I dont think he wants to kill the thing, just run it off. Those are some cool scatter guns by the way
What do you mean by tax stamp? Does it have to do with FFL?
Longhair
07/23/07, 9:32 AM
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
I dont think he wants to kill the thing, just run it off. Those are some cool scatter guns by the way
What do you mean by tax stamp? Does it have to do with FFL?
I hope that you are not implying that he wants to WOUND it to scare it away! Wounded bear ind the woods....hmmmmm.....BAD IDEA! :D
A Tax stamp is what you are getting when you get a license for a class III type weapon, full auto, SBR (short barreled rifle or shotgun) or AOW (any other weapon). The big diff is a AOW requires only a $5 tax stamp, and a full auto, SBR, or Suppressor all require a $200 tax stamp. The one pic of the shotgun sitting on the remington box is a AOW because it was manufactured by Remington as the weapon it is, an SBR would be say a Remington that some other manufaturer modified to be short, Like the Serbu company ones in the other pics. Those require the $200 stamp.
All of course involve a couple month backround check before you can get it.
I've never hunted bear, I guess it depends on the situation, and the bear. You could come out with a pot and a wooden spoon and start clanging them, the bear might run off, or the bear gets ticked off and start charging. I've heard they can be unpredictable. I read that some recomend at least a .308 in rifle and at least a 44mag in pistol to bring one down. This guy just wants to scare the bear off, not bring it down. I got a friend that works for Mesa P.D. maybe I could get a couple flash bangs. That might work.:D
If you have a $200 tax stamp, can you have firearms mailed to your home, or is that something different all together.
ball bearing
07/23/07, 11:37 AM
Last time I saw a bear in the woods, I was archery hunting and you can not carry a gun when archery hunting. It saw me and I saw him, we both turned and walked away.
quote:Originally posted by Longhair
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
I dont think he wants to kill the thing, just run it off. Those are some cool scatter guns by the way
What do you mean by tax stamp? Does it have to do with FFL?
I hope that you are not implying that he wants to WOUND it to scare it away! Wounded bear ind the woods....hmmmmm.....BAD IDEA! :D
A Tax stamp is what you are getting when you get a license for a class III type weapon, full auto, SBR (short barreled rifle or shotgun) or AOW (any other weapon). The big diff is a AOW requires only a $5 tax stamp, and a full auto, SBR, or Suppressor all require a $200 tax stamp. The one pic of the shotgun sitting on the remington box is a AOW because it was manufactured by Remington as the weapon it is, an SBR would be say a Remington that some other manufaturer modified to be short, Like the Serbu company ones in the other pics. Those require the $200 stamp.
All of course involve a couple month backround check before you can get it.
I believe to have a Class III license (which I believe is an FFL or Federal Firearms License), you also give up some personal rights.....like your person and residence can be searched at anytime WITHOUT a search warrant or court order. Also, your finances and personal records can be reviewed and audited WITHOUT a search warrant or court order. Additionally, there are more registration and reporting requirements.
Somebody out there must know of all of the items.
Thanx for the Info Redneck.... I like scatter guns for the home... and a shortie is just right.
Longhair
07/23/07, 3:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by ynotAZ
Thanx for the Info Redneck.... I like scatter guns for the home... and a shortie is just right.
YnotAZ,
Not sure why you keep refering to me as Redneck...is it cause you think I am one? Or are you confusing me with Joe, whose site name is Redneck?
Longhair
07/23/07, 3:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
If you have a $200 tax stamp, can you have firearms mailed to your home, or is that something different all together.
No these are two diff. things a Dealer license is what you are thinking of. A tax stamp is just allowing an individual to own a weapon that before 1968 you could have owned anyway! It requires the big backround check etc.
Now being a dealer is another story that is way more then I want to go into at this time... But you are not as open to person intrusion from the gov. if you have a store front. However if yoiu run a business out of your home like I used to do (Small Arms Consulting and gunsmithing) then you theoretically are more open... However I never even got a phone call.
Where and how do I get a $200 tax stamp?
Longhair
07/23/07, 6:19 PM
Contact a close Class III dealer... Such as http://www.arizonatacticalfirearms.com/
See if Kara can help you out!
http://www.ridingarizona.com/forum/uploaded/longhair/200772421854_Kara.jpg
ball bearing
07/23/07, 7:46 PM
Nice tats
quote:Originally posted by Longhair
Not sure why you keep refering to me as Redneck...is it cause you think I am one? Or are you confusing me with Joe, whose site name is Redneck?
Will you accept "Brain Fart" as an explanation....
My fault for inattention to my typos...
Sorry.
http://www.ridingarizona.com/forum/uploaded/hubcap/200772442038_naughty.gif
Are those tators made from scratch???[:p]
Is it possible to make a mac-90(ak-47) full auto?
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
Is it possible to make a mac-90(ak-47) full auto?
Yes but legal is another matter....
Most gun shows have a book that has a drilling template and describe the procedure fully. The books are also available on the net... The parts kits with a full auto bolt and carrier are available at most places that sell AK parts.
Longhair
07/24/07, 11:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by ynotAZ
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
Is it possible to make a mac-90(ak-47) full auto?
Yes but legal is another matter....
Most gun shows have a book that has a drilling template and describe the procedure fully. The books are also available on the net... The parts kits with a full auto bolt and carrier are available at most places that sell AK parts.
And then start practicing this phrase:
I love you bubba, please dont hurt me anymore!
Cause you will get locked up.
YOU cannot legally manufacture a full auto, and if you are caught with one, plan on a long visit at Florance (probably congical!)
Do it right and legally and they are a blast![8D]
quote:Originally posted by Longhair
And then start practicing this phrase:
I love you bubba, please dont hurt me anymore!
Cause you will get locked up.
YOU cannot legally manufacture a full auto, and if you are caught with one, plan on a long visit at Florance (probably congical!)
Sorry I didn't emphasize that part enough....
to add emphasis:
If you are really unlucky and get an ambitious prosecutor along with an ATF guy looking to get the next promotion, then toss in a some local press on a slow news day and you could end up collecting your social security with Bubba as your spouse. Remember the Arizona Viper case several years back.
Because of nothing else in the news, ATF guys took 8 long guns out of one of the houses and almost made an entire movie out of it. One ATF agent stood inside the door, passed each gun to another ATF guy in the carport, who set it on the hood of a car, then Picked up by another ATF agent and walked out to a van. Eight long guns took forever to move and the whole process was recorded and commented on by channels 3,5,10, and 12. All the coverage put more pressure on everyone to get the longest sentence possible.
I wouldnt want to do it illegally. I guess I should have asked my question this way. Is there a leagal way to make my mac-90 full auto?
Longhair
07/24/07, 3:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by Hubcap
I wouldnt want to do it illegally. I guess I should have asked my question this way. Is there a leagal way to make my mac-90 full auto?
No
Hubcap, have you tried “bump-fire” with your MAK… I have a MAK90 in .223 and it will empty a 30 round mag in about 3 seconds, thats about 600 RPMs.
Yeah it aint accurate but full auto is typically to keep enemy heads down not target shooting…. That is why most all new MGs come with 3 round burst because full auto isn’t that accurate.
A real MG is better but Bump-Fire is legal, it is MUCH cheaper than a tax stamp, and all you do is burn up a LOT of ammo!
If you have a MAK90, and a case of ammo from J&G, and you’ve got all you need.
I've heard the term "bump-fire". How is this accomplished?
It is pushing the MAK forward against your trigger finger, at the hip. The combination recoil and push pulls the trigger after each shot.
MAKs work well with this. SKSs usually don't work at all because of the 4 foot 12 pound trigger pull.
Once you see it done, it is easy...
DaisyCutter
08/03/07, 9:02 AM
I've only shot one SBS, and I repeatedly missed a helium ballon that was ~20 feet away. Hip-shooting an itty-bitty shotgun accurately is tougher than it looks.
husky390
08/15/07, 10:56 AM
You can't go wrong with a S&W .500! Longhair would agree. Personally I prefer calibers that begin with .4 When camping or hunting I carry a Ruger .41 mag or my XD .45 with 230gr. plus p JHP rounds from Hornady. Either one of these will do the job. If not, then I guess I'm on the menu. My uncle used to live in Alaska and he carried a .41 with him all the time. His plan was to wait for the bear to get up on him, stuff the gun in his mouth and pull the trigger. That was his plan and I really wonder how practical it is. I know not to shoot him in the head and if you do shoot him, better be sure you have a good story that will hold up to the gestap aka Game and Fish.